HLT or boil kettle - convert to electric first?

hoboscratch · Post by **hoboscratch** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:40 pm

Since I just grabbed a keg, I figure now is the time to go hybrid with electric/propane. This would be mostly directed to those who are using electricity in some fashion during their brewing process. So, pretty much what the subject says, which would be a better first step, convert the HLT or the boil kettle?

edit: hmm, perhaps a not fully researched question. Looks like I'll need a HLT/MLT used in conjunction with one another and then a BK on the side...

double edit: hmm, maybe not...

Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:50 pm

I really like having my HLT run electric. Cheap to upgrade too. The weldless fitting was $9 and the 120v element I got at menards was also $9. Takes a while to heat up the full volume with a small element, but fits my brew routine which is get home from work, turn on the HLT, eat dinner, kids to bed, boom all my water in the HLT is at mash strike temp. Once I move my HERMS/Chiller in to the HLT it will make regulating mash temperature that much easier. I use the boil kettle for that now because the chiller won't fit through the current opening on top of the HLT. I have no plans to convert my boil kettle. I like running it with a natural gas boil. Been doing that for many years in my basement now and have never had a reading on the gas meter in the brewery or passed out...from the gas...natural gas...the gas I use to make fire.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:54 pm

Or…. Turn it into a Keg scooter!

From: hoboscratch [mailto:brew-equipment@crbeernuts.org]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 1:41 PM
To: brew-equipment@crbeernuts.org
Subject: HLT or boil kettle - convert to electric first?

Since I just grabbed a keg, I figure now is the time to go hybrid with electric/propane. This would be mostly directed to those who are using electricity in some fashion during their brewing process. So, pretty much what the subject says, which would be a better first step, convert the HLT or the boil kettle?

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

hoboscratch · Post by **hoboscratch** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:08 pm

Keg scooter would be pretty sweet.

Matt, I like your idea better though. I've done a few night brews this year and that really works pretty well for my schedule with the kids. Easy to fit in a spur of the moment brew too, like I did a couple weeks ago. So based on what you've said in the past with letting your water sit the night before with Campden tabs, you just collect the entire volume, heat it all then just draw out what you need for the strike, then use the rest for fly sparging? Do you increase your temps to get the grain bed to 168 or do you just keep it at your target temp the entire time? I don't know what is typical process with fly sparging, if there is any difference at all.

Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:44 pm

Basically you got it. I use to never mash out but now I do since it is really easy with the HERMS.

My process night before is fill HLT with 10 gallons and Boil Kettle with 10 gallons so I can slit a Campden tablet between the two. Then later that night or when I first get home from work on brew day I pump water from the boil kettle into the HLT until the HLT is completely full.

On brew day, I plug in the PID and set the temp. I use the same PID for the HLT that I use for my fermentations. So basically I have about 15 gallons of water in the HLT and 5 in the boil kettle. I set the HLT to strike temperature for the mash and I heat the water in the boil kettle to the mash temperature I want.

When I start the brew I pump water from the HLT to the mashtun and mix in the grain. Then I recirculate the mash through the copper coil in my boil kettle to maintain temp if it goes down at all. During the mash I set the HLT to sparge temp which is usually not much different from strike.

To start mash out, I keep recirculating, turn on the burner and raise the boil kettle temp to mash out. Once I am at mash out temp, I pump the water from the boil kettle up to my HLT which continues to hold at sparge temp. I flush the chiller with water from my sink. Basically push it slow until the color is gone. Then I start the sparge.

Now that I write this it seems pretty complex, but once you get your system down it is pretty easy. My last several brews, less the Dumb Bastard, have been extremely smooth. I do plan to mount a seperate S/S coil in my HLT in the future like the Electric Brewery which will simply the process and make for less hose changes. I wanted to brew with a HERMS in place for a while to see how I like it. I do so will make some upgrades in that direction at some point.

DrPaulsen · Post by **DrPaulsen** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:57 pm

HLT.

While an electric BK is nice, the cost of operation is about the only advantage I can think of relative to a gas-fired burner. If you run either gas or electric systems indoors, you're going to need good ventilation due to the boil-off.

I love having a set-it-and-forget-it HLT. I like being able to fill and pre-heat the HLT whenever I feel like it (typically a day or more in advance) and then just flip it on 10 minutes before doughing in. The only real issue I've seen with the electric HLT is that the tank needs some type of agitator to minimize thermal gradients. If you draw the water off above the heating element, this will be less of an issue.

Also, as with all measurements, make sure your controller is calibrated. My PID + Thermocouple is pretty good at low temps, but is off by 15F+ at higher temps. I included a weldless Brewmometer as a mechanical back-up, so I wouldn't have to calibrate the PID. Of course, I've found that the Brewmometer is also off by 10+ degrees at strike temps. I've heard RTD-based sensors are more accurate yet, but if you simply buy a new TC, rather than digging one out of the trash at work, you'll probably be fine.

After I move, I'm going to buy a second pump and do a single-tier system, since I'm tired of climbing ladders and I would like to try a HERMS system with my counterflow chiller. Part of this upgrade will probably include calibrating my PID.

hoboscratch · Post by **hoboscratch** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:30 pm

I would also like to do a single tier system someday. I think that for now though I'll have to upgrade slowly. But I'm convinced that HLT is the way to go for this keg. I do remember your post, Lee, about the HLT agitator. Can't you adjust your Brewmometer? What sort of PID did you use?

Matt, about how long does it take to get your water heated? Do you have a controller to set the temp to? If so, what do you use?

Thanks fellas. I am hoping to sneak in a brew one of these next few weekends and it would be sweet if I could get this up and running by then.

Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:42 pm

I will check to see how long it takes in my notes from my last brew sessions. I recall keeping a little better track the last time.

For an aggitator in your HLT, you can use one of your pumps in a single tier system. Just add a return valve that makes a whirlpool. The Electric Brewery site shows a nice set up. He has a whilpool return with the pump that moves opposite flow of the wort in the HERMS coil. Seems like a slick setup and if you plan to go single tier, you will have the pump. Right now I draw slightly above the level of the element and stir it up once in a while.

DrPaulsen · Post by **DrPaulsen** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:49 pm

I think you can adjust the Brewmometer, but I'll probably just build a calibration reference table.

My PID is an ancient one that my brother-in-law saved from the trash. It had never been opened, but was too outdated to use in the factory. I wouldn't recommend it b/c it has a terrible user interface if you have to adjust any settings (part of my motivation to build a cal reference table vs actually calibrating the PID).

If you want to know how long a water heater takes to heat up, send me a note with the particulars and I'll run the math for you. It's a very easy calculation, assuming you know the volume you're trying to heat and the element's power rating.

TappedOut · Post by **TappedOut** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:18 pm

Also, w/ a hybrid system like Matt's, if you're in a hurry, you can always heat your strike water in the boil kettle.

I'm piecing together an all-electric setup, just because I'm more comfortable playing with electricity than with natural gas. Either way will make beer, or kill you if you do something stupid.

Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:53 pm

My brewmometer and PID read same temp at the usual operating range of room temp to 180 F. Haven't used them together outside that range. Of course, tha does not prove them to be accurate.

Like Tom said, I have decided to brew last minute and use the boil kettle and burner to heat up water for the mash. I also still have a burner on under the HLT incase it is running too slow. Something I already had so might as well use it. I may reconfigure my stand so the mash tun is back up top and then it would be direct fired. Would allow me to more easily do double batches. Basically would be like the two tier More Beer stands.

I checked my last brew session and it goes like this:
4:20 PM - HLT filled full and at 69 F, turn on PID
5:12 PM - HLT at 111 F
5:43 PM - HLT at 138 F
8:00 PM - Dinner over and kids in bed, HLT holding at 175 F
10:05 PM - Mash in

So basically I do not know exactly how long it took. You can see why I continue to automate parts of the process. It makes it more possible for me to brew. I fired it up after work tonight and will see if I can see when it gets where I want. Going for a 165 F strike.

hoboscratch · Post by **hoboscratch** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:29 am

I've been doing quite a bit of reading (sorry boss) and there are quite a few options it seems for an eHLT. Decisions, decisions. I would love to be able to go 240v, but I'll have to check when I get home to see how feasible it will be to run power from my breaker to my garage. Its a pretty straight shot from my breaker box, but I have a drywalled ceiling in my basement and am not sure if there is any space to run wire, outside of running conduit along the wall.

I think ideally I'd like to get something like this set up.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/hybrid-brew-rig-229332/
Seems like it would be pretty easy to add in that whirlpool you were talking about, Matt. Also, since I have two burners as well, I could just add 2 burners into the mix on this and if I did have to go 120v for the time being, I could have the propane backup there if I need it.

Do you guys have control boxes similar to the link above or are you using something like a Johnson controller to run the whole deal? edit: I guess the question should be, what sort of controllers are you using, and how many do you have?

TappedOut · Post by **TappedOut** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:14 pm

A Ranco or Johnson controller will work for something on the order of 1500W. Check the specs to be sure. If you want to go bigger, you'll probably need to rig up something yourself w/ a solid-state relay + heatsink + controller + temp probe. Also, depending on the power level, be careful the wiring can handle the current.

Do you have Lee's handout from his electric brewing tech meeting? Good info in there, including (IIRC) a chart showing ramp-up time versus power level.

hoboscratch · Post by **hoboscratch** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:29 pm

I looked at the spreadsheet yesterday when this was much more new to me. I've done a lot of reading since then and you guys have been very helpful too, so I think I will go look at it again. It will probably make much more sense now. I still have a lot to figure out, that's for sure. I do need to figure out if I am going to be able to do 240v or not...

Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:01 pm

If you aren't sure about 120 or 240 you can still buy a 240v element and it is able to be run at 120v. It will just have less power than what it is rated at 240v. Lee has all you need to know about that.

I use a Johnson controller I got for Christmas years ago for fermenting. Since I already had it, I just use that as my controller.

When brewing last night I decided I need to find a bigger lid and cut the opening in my HLT big enough to fit my chiller. Would make mashing really easy if I didn't have to turn a burner on and off. Since my chiller/HERMS coil has a return like Jamil's whirlpool chiller, I figure I will try using that with the pump to mix up the HLT.