Stuck Fermentation?
Stuck Fermentation?
Hey Everybody - I am brewing a Double IPA. My SG reading was 1.070 which was right on according to the recipe. The FG is supposed to be 1.016-1.018. I took a reading at 2 weeks of fermentation and it was at 1.035. I went on vacation and it sat for another 1.5 weeks. I took another reading today and it is still 1.035. What the heck! My carboy has been sitting on the counter upstairs for a couple of hours now and the airlock has started bubbling again. Was the fermentation process maybe stuck? My basement seemed a bit cold I took a temp reading down there and it is around 62 degree's upstairs it is 67. I wanted to bottle today but do you think I should leave it upstairs for another day and take another reading or just go for it? Can a temperature difference like that be the difference? Any advice would be appreciated.
John Dulle
A coupe of things: Yeast strains vary quite a bit as to temperature hardiness. If you are using Wyeast 1056 I doubt that it would have stopped at 62F, as many people ferment with it down to that temp.
The most likely cause is under pitching. Despite the "advertising" claims of Wyeast and White Labs, a single pouch/vial is not enough yeast for most beers, especially higher gravity ales or lagers. Using a well-known pitching rate calculator I come up with 2.6 packs of yeast for a 1.070 5 gallon batch assuming the yeast is fresh. The age of liquid yeasts is also a BIG factor. For example, if the smack pack is even 1 month old the estimate goes up to 3.4 packs.
If you are using BeerSmith it has a yeast calculator built in. Otherwise most people here use a tool such as http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html to figure out how much they need.
You can try warming it up and see what happens. I'd try to get it up to around 70F or higher and shake it up. A small amount of bubbling does not mean that it is fermenting. It's more likely just CO2 coming out of solution at the warmer temp. Other people's opinions may vary with this, but if I were you I'd probably go ahead and pitch more yeast in there.
I'd really try to get the gravity down before bottling. You're risking bottle bombs and it's probably going to taste way too sweet at 1.035.
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The most likely cause is under pitching. Despite the "advertising" claims of Wyeast and White Labs, a single pouch/vial is not enough yeast for most beers, especially higher gravity ales or lagers. Using a well-known pitching rate calculator I come up with 2.6 packs of yeast for a 1.070 5 gallon batch assuming the yeast is fresh. The age of liquid yeasts is also a BIG factor. For example, if the smack pack is even 1 month old the estimate goes up to 3.4 packs.
If you are using BeerSmith it has a yeast calculator built in. Otherwise most people here use a tool such as http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html to figure out how much they need.
You can try warming it up and see what happens. I'd try to get it up to around 70F or higher and shake it up. A small amount of bubbling does not mean that it is fermenting. It's more likely just CO2 coming out of solution at the warmer temp. Other people's opinions may vary with this, but if I were you I'd probably go ahead and pitch more yeast in there.
I'd really try to get the gravity down before bottling. You're risking bottle bombs and it's probably going to taste way too sweet at 1.035.
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Randy Carris
Randy All the Time Brewing
Randy All the Time Brewing
Thanks for the advice Randy and the link is helpful. This is the first I have heard that I should probably be adding more yeast for higher gravity beers. I have got all my kits from Midwest and they only send the one. I don't have the package for the wyeast so I am not sure how fresh it was I will be sure to check that in the future. Is it ok to combine a dry yeast with a liquid wyeast or should I only be using the same type of yeast everytime? I am going to let it sit for another day or so and see if the gravity starts going down or not. If not I will pitch more yeast like you advised. Thanks!
John Dulle
Stuck Fermentation?
John,
I try to stay close to the original yeast if possible. For example, if you pitched 1056 you can use White Labs 001 or SafeAle S-05 (dry) as they are all pretty much the same strain. Which yeast did you use originally?
On 02/26/12 11:00, jdulle wrote:
I try to stay close to the original yeast if possible. For example, if you pitched 1056 you can use White Labs 001 or SafeAle S-05 (dry) as they are all pretty much the same strain. Which yeast did you use originally?
On 02/26/12 11:00, jdulle wrote:
Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)Thanks for the advice Randy and the link is helpful. This is the first I have heard that I should probably be adding more yeast for higher gravity beers. I have got all my kits from Midwest and they only send the one. I don't have the package for the wyeast so I am not sure how fresh it was I will be sure to check that in the future. Is it ok to combine a dry yeast with a liquid wyeast or should I only be using the same type of yeast everytime? I am going to let it sit for another day or so and see if the gravity starts going down or not. If not I will pitch more yeast like you advised. Thanks!
John Dulle
Randy Carris
Randy All the Time Brewing
Randy All the Time Brewing
Stuck Fermentation?
I've done roughly 120 batches and have never had a "stuck" fermentation. I have had some slow starting batches but time always seemed to be a friend.On about batch 10 I did a german dark lager extract from midwest and I believe the yeast was #1007. At day number 2 I was starting to get nervous but the guys at midwest told me to wait and that german yeast strains are "funny". It fermented out completely in about 2 weeks. This was BEFORE I did yeast starters or had even heard of underpitching.Since then I almost always make a starter and it take off with 4 hours max....sometimes much sooner. At the risk of starting a flame war (which is not my intent)....I think the mr malty calc is a bit inaccurate and kind of misleading. I only assert this from personal experience. I did 5-6 batches in a row using the exact amount recommended and every single one had a yeasty taste when it was all done. 2 years ago at the Beer Fest in Denver I talked to the reps from Wyeast and asked them about rates and the whole mr malty thing...the woman rolled her eyes and the guy looked a little peeved. They told me that if a batch needed 2 packs of their yeast they would tell you it needed 2 so they could sell you 2 packs. They also said they would not recommend an amount that would produce bad beer because they would not be selling yeast long if they did. In my travels I have interrogated brewers from Leinies, New Glarus, and others about innoculation rate and they are on par with about 1.5 "smack" packs per 5 gallons.My conclusions:A little more than a pack in normal grav is fine.Starters are ALWAYS better.I've severely underpitched and the beer was good. (Early days and little experience).I've pitched the recommended amount from the malty man and the beer was yeasty.Dry yeast seems to work great.Moral of the story: relax...it will be fine. Use a starter when you can. Experiment and have fun. The hobby is chock full of voodoo and legends.Also look up the basic brewing/byo collaborative experiment on yeast pitching rates...interesting stuff.PaulFrom: "jdulle" <brew-recipes@crbeernuts.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:04:08 -0600
To: <brew-recipes@crbeernuts.org>
ReplyTo: brew-recipes@crbeernuts.org
Subject: Re: Stuck Fermentation?
It is a liquid wyeast and just a 5 gallon batch
John Dulle
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Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:04:08 -0600
To: <brew-recipes@crbeernuts.org>
ReplyTo: brew-recipes@crbeernuts.org
Subject: Re: Stuck Fermentation?
It is a liquid wyeast and just a 5 gallon batch
John Dulle
-------------------- m2f -------------------- Sent using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com). Read this topic online here: http://www.crbeernuts.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=17446#17446 -------------------- m2f --------------------
Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
Well, I don't want to get into and argument either, but an OG of 1.070 is certainly not a "normal" beer. If were talking about a beer with an OG of around 1.045 then 1.5 packs is about right for 5 gallons of ale. And as for what Wyeast says, this is right from their website FAQ:
I'm more inclined to believe the info they post publically than what some sales person says. Yes, I've seen plenty of arguments about how much yeast you should pitch and there are lots of opinions. However, the question here is how to fix a beer that has not attenuated enough.11. I brewed a high gravity beer and I am having a difficult time getting the beer to attenuate. What went wrong?
There are many factors that lead to incomplete attenuation. At the beginning, it is very important to increase your pitch rates according to the original gravity of your beer. A good rule to follow is a million cells per milliliter per degree plato. This means that you need 20 million cells per ml for a 20 degree plato (1.080 specific gravity) beer, or 3 Activator packages for a 5 gallon batch. It is also important to remember that it is more difficult to get oxygen into the solution in a high gravity wort. At the end of fermentation, high alcohol levels, lack of nutrients, poor yeast health and lack of fermentable sugars can effect attenuation.
12. Do you need more yeast for high gravity fermentations?
Yes, anytime you are pitching yeast into a harsh environment (high gravity, low temp) you need to add additional yeast. A rough rule of thumb is to double pitch rates above 1.065 and triple pitch rates above 1.085. Or, more technically, a million cells per milliliter are needed for a 20degree plato (1.080 specifice gravity) beer, or 3 Activator packages for a 5 gallon batch. It is also important to remember tht it is more difficult to get oxygen into the solution in a high gravity wort.
Randy Carris
Randy All the Time Brewing
Randy All the Time Brewing
This is why, when possible, I prefer to use dry yeast. Beyond the cost savings, which in the big picture is nothing, I like that I can pitch 1 pk/5 gal, and have plenty of yeast. I'm not saying that I never use liquid yeast, and there are very limited varieties on dry yeast. But for beers that aren't yeast centered, I tend to gravitate to dry.
just my 2c
just my 2c
Bad people drink bad beer. You don't usually see an empty bottle of Rochefort tossed onto the side of the road
I think a regular smack pack is good to about 5 gallon of a 1.060 beer. After that you need to either use a second pack or make a starter. According to White Labs you need 1,000,000/ml/degree plato. You can do the math, or use Beersmith, or use MrMalty. It should all come out close.
On the beer side. Let it warm up and finish out. I'd give it a few days to see if the gravity starts dropping before I pitched more yeast. If you do repitch it should be from an active starter. It's going into a hostile enviroment and will need to be ready to run.
On the beer side. Let it warm up and finish out. I'd give it a few days to see if the gravity starts dropping before I pitched more yeast. If you do repitch it should be from an active starter. It's going into a hostile enviroment and will need to be ready to run.
Runamok Brewing
Jesus must have been a yeast. Who else could turn water into wine?
Jesus must have been a yeast. Who else could turn water into wine?
Lots of good dialogue here I appreiciate all the feedback. I can't find on the website which product number specifically the wyeast was but this is the beer http://www.midwestsupplies.com/hop-head-double-ipa.html. I did it once before in the summer and it was one of my favorites that is why I was doing it again.
One more thing to add I did dry hop it with 2 oz of whole leaf hops. I threw them directly in the fermentor as opposed to putting in a muslin bag. At this point is has been in primary for 1 week and secondary for 3 weeks. The recipe only calls for 2 weeks fermentation but does dry hopping ever increase that time?
I will wait another day and take another gravity reading and let everyone know if it has started moving yet. It's has been at the very least a good expirement batch.
One more thing to add I did dry hop it with 2 oz of whole leaf hops. I threw them directly in the fermentor as opposed to putting in a muslin bag. At this point is has been in primary for 1 week and secondary for 3 weeks. The recipe only calls for 2 weeks fermentation but does dry hopping ever increase that time?
I will wait another day and take another gravity reading and let everyone know if it has started moving yet. It's has been at the very least a good expirement batch.
John Dulle
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That smack pack by itself may be enough to ferment a 5 gallon batch of 1.060 wort (in fact, it certainly should be). But for me, the benefit of the starter is how fast I can get the fermentation happening. Last weekend I brewed my scottish 80. It was a very average gravity, at 1.052. I could have certainly pitched a vial of white labs, and had it ferment out. But, by making a starter that morning, and pitching an active yeast starter, I had active fermentation in less than 4 hours. No way that vial of white labs is going to take hold that fast.
In this case, the under attenuation is pretty severe. This is 40% attenuation. I think the pitch rate of the yeast may not be the culprit.
What was your temp in the mash tun? Assuming this is all grain. And, have you calibrated your mash thermometer? I would be concerned about a mash problem, leaving lots of un-fermentable sugar.
In this case, the under attenuation is pretty severe. This is 40% attenuation. I think the pitch rate of the yeast may not be the culprit.
What was your temp in the mash tun? Assuming this is all grain. And, have you calibrated your mash thermometer? I would be concerned about a mash problem, leaving lots of un-fermentable sugar.
You can't get with this with a bad hip - Matt
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- Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:10 am
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OK. I see in the post before mine, the link is to an extract kit, so we can rule out mash issues.
Tell us about the hops you pitched. How did you treat them before adding? What was the gravity when you added those? I am not convinced this is a yeast issue, because you did get from 1.07 to 1.035. So that means the yeast took hold, and was fermenting. It would have been multiplying, and should have been able to finish. Wyeast 1056 is pretty hearty stuff. Something made it stop. I suggest it either ran out of fermentable sugar, which would indicate a bad batch of extract (something I have never heard of before), or something killed the yeast off, prematurely.
Tell us about the hops you pitched. How did you treat them before adding? What was the gravity when you added those? I am not convinced this is a yeast issue, because you did get from 1.07 to 1.035. So that means the yeast took hold, and was fermenting. It would have been multiplying, and should have been able to finish. Wyeast 1056 is pretty hearty stuff. Something made it stop. I suggest it either ran out of fermentable sugar, which would indicate a bad batch of extract (something I have never heard of before), or something killed the yeast off, prematurely.
You can't get with this with a bad hip - Matt
Hard to say why it stopped at 1.035. I do the Mr. Malty calculator thing and it works for me. Jamil did co-author a book about yeast with Chris White who founded White Labs, the main competitor for Wyeast. It doesn't surprise me that a sales rep for Wyeast would want to discount their claims. Jamil won Ninkasi and is famous as a homebrewer and now professional brewer so I don't mind using his advice. That's really not important here. I use both companies and like their products. I tend to use White Labs these days because I like their vials and have been reusing them to store parts of my starters to use in my next batch.
I often do 10 gallon batches using one yeast pack so a starter is a must. I do this because extract and second runnings are cheaper than another yeast pack or two. The other reason is I have lots of really fresh yeast from the starter. I usually pitch my starters less than 24 hours after they have begun and they are rocking when I dump them in. I also do a lot of re-pitching on the yeast cake of a previous batch and it works really well for me. I brew about twice a month, but only buy 4-5 packages of yeast a year as most of my brews use one of two yeasts. I think I make some decent beer, so again, this works for me.
I had one beer get stuck once a few years ago, a belgian golden strong. I warmed it up to about 70F, added champagne yeast, and it finished out nice. I would give that a try before bottling and see if you finish it out a little more.
I may have missed it, but how do you add oxygen? I use to have beers always coming up short on attenuation and it made a big difference once I started adding 02 with an aquarium pump or the little welding tanks.
I often do 10 gallon batches using one yeast pack so a starter is a must. I do this because extract and second runnings are cheaper than another yeast pack or two. The other reason is I have lots of really fresh yeast from the starter. I usually pitch my starters less than 24 hours after they have begun and they are rocking when I dump them in. I also do a lot of re-pitching on the yeast cake of a previous batch and it works really well for me. I brew about twice a month, but only buy 4-5 packages of yeast a year as most of my brews use one of two yeasts. I think I make some decent beer, so again, this works for me.
I had one beer get stuck once a few years ago, a belgian golden strong. I warmed it up to about 70F, added champagne yeast, and it finished out nice. I would give that a try before bottling and see if you finish it out a little more.
I may have missed it, but how do you add oxygen? I use to have beers always coming up short on attenuation and it made a big difference once I started adding 02 with an aquarium pump or the little welding tanks.
Matt Franklin
Slappy Brewing North
On Tap:
American IPA
Strata Hazy IPA
Dr. Lee Orval
American Strong Ale
Friend of the Devil Belgian Golden Strong
Imperial Stout
Slappy Brewing North
On Tap:
American IPA
Strata Hazy IPA
Dr. Lee Orval
American Strong Ale
Friend of the Devil Belgian Golden Strong
Imperial Stout
Couple things of importance should be noted here:
There are two very important aspects to pitching amounts.
1) getting your beer to finish out properly
2) ester production
As far as it goes for one, there are many things that go into what is need to finish out at the FG you are looking for Pitching rates, temperature, age of yeast, etc... all of things things are important and someone determine how well your fermentation will go, a warmer environment makes for happier yeast and therefore less is required to finish out your beer, new yeast means less dead cells therefore less packages required.
The really important thing in pitching amounts is ESTER production, different amounts of yeast will result in different ester profiles. Typically the more you strain a yeast, the more of the esters that will be produced by that particular style of yeast. For example one of the tricks to producing a Hefeweizen with larger clove and banana esters is by under pitching the yeast, this strains the yeast and causes a higher level of ester production.
In general go with the advice that Tom gave you as this is the generally accepted correct manner for calculating yeast pitching rates. The following formula is widely accepted for pitching rates.
1,000,000 yeast cells/ml/degree plato
and is what you should generally follow, this allows you to taylor your pitching rates to the specific beer you are producing.
There are two very important aspects to pitching amounts.
1) getting your beer to finish out properly
2) ester production
As far as it goes for one, there are many things that go into what is need to finish out at the FG you are looking for Pitching rates, temperature, age of yeast, etc... all of things things are important and someone determine how well your fermentation will go, a warmer environment makes for happier yeast and therefore less is required to finish out your beer, new yeast means less dead cells therefore less packages required.
The really important thing in pitching amounts is ESTER production, different amounts of yeast will result in different ester profiles. Typically the more you strain a yeast, the more of the esters that will be produced by that particular style of yeast. For example one of the tricks to producing a Hefeweizen with larger clove and banana esters is by under pitching the yeast, this strains the yeast and causes a higher level of ester production.
In general go with the advice that Tom gave you as this is the generally accepted correct manner for calculating yeast pitching rates. The following formula is widely accepted for pitching rates.
1,000,000 yeast cells/ml/degree plato
and is what you should generally follow, this allows you to taylor your pitching rates to the specific beer you are producing.