Hop Oils & FWH'ing

[DrPaulsen]

While reading through Stan Hieronymus' "For the Love of Hops", a note about hop aroma caught my eye as entirely contrary to conventional home brewing wisdom (and therefore worth sharing). He noted that researchers have measured decay of many aroma compounds during a boil (e.g. 4MMP, the compound responsible for "catty" & Onion aromas in NW American hops). However, defying conventional wisdom, there are other compounds that were actually found to increase during the boil (e.g. 3MH, which smells like gooseberries & is prominent in Nelson Sauvin). The reason for this increase is not fully understood, but it's posited that certain base oils form oxidized compounds, which are much more stable and remain highly fragrant. Additionally, there are certain compounds that seem to undergo a biotransformation during fermentation and increase throughout the primary (e.g., Linalool, which smells strongly of citrus and is found in Citra).

I have noticed that homebrewers often see mixed results with First Wort Hopping and wondered if that could be due to the oil composition and/or hop varieties going into the kettle. Perhaps some hops lend themselves better to FWH'ing than others - presumably because they contain more of the compounds that will increase during the boil (e.g. 3MH) than the dissipative compounds (e.g. 4MMP). I ping'd Stan about this. He noted that the science behind aroma and flavor compound development could be better understood, but agreed that it made perfect sense that certain hop varities are better for FWH'ing than others. While we see certain trends with FWH'ing with respect to aroma and flavor, it isn't accurate to apply them across the board.

I'm starting to dig into the research papers I can find on this topic (which are few and far between, probably because there hasn't been much industry money driving research in this area). If I find anything else of interest, I'll report back. Even with the bit of info in The Love of Hops, though, I can't help but wonder if certain varieties like Mosaic, Nelson, and Galaxy wouldn't lend themselves better to FWH'ing than Simcoe & Cascade.

[Steven P]

I also purchased this book. From my notes I recommended using, for example, both Citra and coriander in an IPA.

The discussion regarding citronellol for example didn't seem to me to exclude 4MMP totally as a compound to be wanted in a hop forward beer. My reading (albeit brief) as I recall noted 4MMP as a common compound in 'Merican IPA, despite being volatile, as not necessarily negative in nature, but desirous as a "dank" vegetal addition, such as was noted regarding Chinook.

Based on how Stone now completely whirlpool hops their "Stone IPA" instead of boiling, I'd extrapolate that the Myrcene and 4MMP compounds are ones that maintain their aromas via the lower temps of whirlpool and FWH additions than if they were boiled. Perhaps the 165F to 185f temps are something to be explored.

Maybe one day we two could do an IPA that we say, bring to a boil for 20 min, cool to 185, add a shit ton of hops, wait 30 min, then chill and pitch. I'd wager it would be fantastic.

Apologies if this seems a bit muddled of a reply. I have been drinking a bit.

[DrPaulsen]

Below is a link to a dissertation I've been reading through on hop aromas.  Page 23 has a series of curves showing how aromatic terpenoids evolve throughout the boil.  It looks to me like most of them are substantially reduced in about 30 mins of boil time.  This seems consistent with the concept of an "aroma" addition near the end of the boil.  What isn't listed here, is how the concentration of various hop flavor compounds change with time.  While the olfactory response is obviously important to the perceived taste, it seems like there isn't much research that's been done on hop-derived flavor compounds (i.e. stuff that specifically reacts with your taste buds).  If those compounds followed the same type of evolution as most of the aroma compounds in this dissertation, it seems like you would only occasionally have a good reason to add hops mid-boil.  The exceptions, of course, being for bittering hops whose flavor compounds you may want to reduce and those sets of hops containing precursors to flavor/aroma compounds like 3MH that actually grow through the boil.  I can see how you would get to the point of only making FWH and whirlpool additions in the kettle.

Steve, to your point, it would be nice to see how these compounds evolved in the whirlpool and look at that as a function of whirlpool temps.  I think a 30 minute boil beer with whirlpool/hop-stand additions should be every bit as good as a more traditional 90 or 60 minute boil beer.


I found this note from the intro (pg 15) interesting: "However, the hop aromas as found in beer differs significantly from those found in hop cones themselves; the aroma qualities of hop cones are not reflected to the beer hop aroma."  In other words, simply smelling the hops beforehand will not give you a good picture of the aroma compounds they will produce in the beer.



http://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/66109/4/D_Kishimoto_Toru.pdf







On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Steven P <brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (brew-tech@crbeernuts.org)> wrote:

I also purchased this book. From my notes I recommended using, for example, both Citra and coriander in an IPA.

The discussion regarding citronellol for example didn't seem to me to exclude 4MMP totally as a compound to be wanted in a hop forward beer. My reading (albeit brief) as I recall noted 4MMP as a common compound in 'Merican IPA, despite being volatile, as not necessarily negative in nature, but desirous as a "dank" vegetal addition, such as was noted regarding Chinook.

Based on how Stone now completely whirlpool hops their "Stone IPA" instead of boiling, I'd extrapolate that the Myrcene and 4MMP compounds are ones that maintain their aromas via the lower temps of whirlpool and FWH additions than if they were boiled. Perhaps the 165F to 185f temps are something to be explored.

Maybe one day we two could do an IPA that we say, bring to a boil for 20 min, cool to 185, add a shit ton of hops, wait 30 min, then chill and pitch. I'd wager it would be fantastic.

Apologies if this seems a bit muddled of a reply. I have been drinking a bit.



"Payday came and with it beer"
- Rudyard Kipling

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[DrPaulsen]

Here's a great presentation on dry hopping that Stan sent me.  He said he wished this material had been available earlier so he could have folded it into his book.  It's too bad we can't hear the audio from the presenter, but the slide deck itself has a lot of really interesting charts & comments.  If I'm understanding some of this correctly, I think the presenter would advocate dry hopping in the presence of active yeast to help drive up fruity flavor compounds (with some caveats).

http://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/inbr/documents/presentation-jean-marie-rock.pdf






On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:46 AM, DrPaulsen <brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (brew-tech@crbeernuts.org)> wrote:

Below is a link to a dissertation I've been reading through on hop aromas.  Page 23 has a series of curves showing how aromatic terpenoids evolve throughout the boil.  It looks to me like most of them are substantially reduced in about 30 mins of boil time.  This seems consistent with the concept of an "aroma" addition near the end of the boil.  What isn't listed here, is how the concentration of various hop flavor compounds change with time.  While the olfactory response is obviously important to the perceived taste, it seems like there isn't much research that's been done on hop-derived flavor compounds (i.e. stuff that specifically reacts with your taste buds).  If those compounds followed the same type of evolution as most of the aroma compounds in this dissertation, it seems like you would only occasionally have a good reason to add hops mid-boil.  The exceptions, of course, being for bittering hops whose flavor compounds you may want to reduce and those sets of hops containing precursors to flavor/aroma compounds like 3MH that actually grow through the boil.  I can see how you would get to the point of only making FWH and whirlpool additions in the kettle.

Steve, to your point, it would be nice to see how these compounds evolved in the whirlpool and look at that as a function of whirlpool temps.  I think a 30 minute boil beer with whirlpool/hop-stand additions should be every bit as good as a more traditional 90 or 60 minute boil beer.


I found this note from the intro (pg 15) interesting: "However, the hop aromas as found in beer differs significantly from those found in hop cones themselves; the aroma qualities of hop cones are not reflected to the beer hop aroma."  In other words, simply smelling the hops beforehand will not give you a good picture of the aroma compounds they will produce in the beer.



http://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/66109/4/D_Kishimoto_Toru.pdf








On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Steven P brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (brew-tech@crbeernuts.org))> wrote:
: I also purchased this book. From my notes I recommended using, for example, both Citra and coriander in an IPA.

The discussion regarding citronellol for example didn't seem to me to exclude 4MMP totally as a compound to be wanted in a hop forward beer. My reading (albeit brief) as I recall noted 4MMP as a common compound in 'Merican IPA, despite being volatile, as not necessarily negative in nature, but desirous as a "dank" vegetal addition, such as was noted regarding Chinook.

Based on how Stone now completely whirlpool hops their "Stone IPA" instead of boiling, I'd extrapolate that the Myrcene and 4MMP compounds are ones that maintain their aromas via the lower temps of whirlpool and FWH additions than if they were boiled. Perhaps the 165F to 185f temps are something to be explored.

Maybe one day we two could do an IPA that we say, bring to a boil for 20 min, cool to 185, add a shit ton of hops, wait 30 min, then chill and pitch. I'd wager it would be fantastic.

Apologies if this seems a bit muddled of a reply. I have been drinking a bit.




"Payday came and with it beer"
- Rudyard Kipling

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

[-MG-]

I emailed Boulevard about their Tank 7 Saison, looking for some hints on their processes.

Their Tank 7 is around 35 IBU's and they would do a modified FWH.

He said they would add 6.4 IBU of Magnum at 208 F and continue to boil.

This lends me to believe that Magnum may also be a good choice for FWH. Although their method is slightly different.

[Steven P]

Martin are you using my recipe?

[-MG-]

Martin are you using my recipe?

I don't use beersmith so I wasn't able to open your file, but I did open it as a notepad file and could make out a few things.

Our grist is very much the same.

I plan to use White Lab's Farmhouse strain and I'm also going to use a step mash.

Hops I'm using: Magnum, Simcoe, Amarillo.