Kegging Questions

[agray]

So I'd like to get into kegging at least some of my beers. My ideal would be that I could have four beers on tap. I'd like to start that way if only maybe a keg or two and then keep adding on over the next year or so.

I'm thinking of getting a chest freezer. What size do you think would accommodate this or any recommendations on them?

I found a good deal on a 20# tank. Which I know is a great deal larger but much better deal to have refilled than getting a 5#.
Is it better to plan on having the tank inside or outside the keezer? Are there pros and cons? If I go with the 20# is a collar probably going to be necessary since it wouldn't fit? I don't care what it looks like really.

Do I need to build a collar necessarily or can I get by to start with picnic taps and no other modifications?

What would be the best temp controller and is humidity a problem?

Also does anyone have any keggng equipment they don't need that they might be willing to sell?

[andrewmaixner]

in general, a 9 cubic ft freezer ( I have the current sears/kenmore model) will fit 4 pin-lock kegs on the floor, and 2 on the hump. When all 6 are in, it's a VERY tight fit. I have my CO2 external, otherwise it would only fit 5.

a 5CF may fit 2 or 3, a 7CF may fit 4, but the 9CF gives a lot more flexibility for minimal additional cost/space.

If there are only 4 kegs in, then the extra space can be used for lagering, cold crashing, etc.

note: Ball-locks (not "converted" pin-->ball lock) are 1 inch less in diameter, and a little taller -- they would be easier to fit horizontally.
I added a 6 or 8 inch collar to mine, so it vertically can fit any size keg in any location.


PICTURES!
https://goo.gl/photos/RBM1Ryatqpqk71hr8
Note that the picture with 6 kegs in it has a 3-gallon on the hump, such that it looks like a 5-gallon on the floor.
I did a lot of reading other people's build posts to integrate a lot of their good ideas.
If anyone wants to stop by and take a look at it in person, feel free to ask

[agray]

Thanks Andrew.

I also have a fridge right now that I could fit two kegs in with a 5lb I'd just need to find somewhere to store my bottles.

Is it worth it in the end to have a couple of C02 tanks? I suppose this way I would have a 5# and a 20# so when I am getting one refilled or if one runs out I'd have a back-up at least.

[daryl]

An extra CO2 is nice for when your other tank runs out on a Saturday after all of the refill stations have closed...OR...when you want to take a keg or two on the road; but you need a second regulator to make that convenient.

[andrewmaixner]

Thanks Andrew.
I also have a fridge right now that I could fit two kegs in with a 5lb I'd just need to find somewhere to store my bottles.
Is it worth it in the end to have a couple of C02 tanks? I suppose this way I would have a 5# and a 20# so when I am getting one refilled or if one runs out I'd have a back-up at least.

the high-pressure gauge on the CO2 regulator tells you when you are getting low -- if you pay attention to it. it will hang in the "full" range while there is liquid CO2 left, then will drop fast once it is fully gaseous. You can also WEIGH the tank. I have not had a problem with running out suddenly as long as I look at it occasionally.
You can get mini-CO2 cartridge assemblies for on-the-road to serve a pre-pressureized keg, or small paintball CO2 adaptors / regulators, etc.

Lots of options.


P.S.: make sure all CO2 connections have check valves on them -- these are often built in to the manifold on/off lever valves also.

[UndeadFred]

I just built a collar for my 7.1 CF fridge. I will be able to do four pin locks (converted) in my keezer and have enough room for starters, bottles, etc. that it is big enough for me.

I've been running the tank in the freezer. What I don't like about that is the collar at the top of the tank started to get rusty as it gets a little damp in the keezer over time. There are methods to mitigate that, like Damp Rid.. I just use a bathroom towel about every two weeks to wipe it all down at present.

But the other obvious problem, my tank, a 10# one.. it takes up exactly the same space as a keg could. Running them cold also effs up the reading on the already pretty much totally ineffective high pressure gauge (It shows in the red with a full tank at 35F, trust me). I think eventually I'm going to hang the tank from a luggage scale in a safety structure I build in case the scale breaks and get rid if the high pressure gauge all together.

If I had it to do all over again I'd get a 20# tank, honestly.. but for the three months I ran without the collar, that 10# tank fit. A 20# would have required the collar anyway. But I like the tank being outside better regardless. Aesthetics might require otherwise.

But get as large as you can, unless in my case I didn't want to take up any more floor space. But a 7 cf is the minimum and as large as you want to haul up and down the stairs for a max. I'd probably do two 7 cf's before I did a 15cf, but that is me!

For a temperature controller I use a InkBird ITC-308. No issues so far with it.

Fred

[Matt F]

Get the big 20#. Lasts a long time and cheaper to fill in the long run. I like the tank outside for two reasons. First, it saves the space for another keg. Second, the gauge that warns you of empty gas soon will warn you sooner if the tank is at room temp versus inside the fridge. Not sure of the science there, but I found this to be the case for my keg fridge.

[andrewmaixner]

. Second, the gauge that warns you of empty gas soon will warn you sooner if the tank is at room temp versus inside the fridge. Not sure of the science there, but I found this to be the case for my keg fridge.

PV=nRT

[whitedj]

Also steel tanks tend to rust (in or out of the freezer) A 5 gallon bucket makes a good tank holder and should keep a couple common keg tools spanner wrench etc around too. This will also help to keep the co2 tank upright. I've tipped mine over a couple times.


I started with picnic taps in the keezer. Messy, yes. Functional and cheap, yes. Currently have shanks through a coller and a mud pan for a drip tray.

Drawbacks to a keezer is physically lifting the kegs above the coller to get them in. And cleaning it occasionally Is a pain to get in the bottom.

I got a sct1000 hard wired to my keezer in the factory thermostat position. Good and cheap but will void the warranty.

[whitedj]

Get the big 20#. Lasts a long time and cheaper to fill in the long run. I like the tank outside for two reasons. First, it saves the space for another keg. Second, the gauge that warns you of empty gas soon will warn you sooner if the tank is at room temp versus inside the fridge. Not sure of the science there, but I found this to be the case for my keg fridge.

The pressure in the tank is dependant on temperature of the liquid co2.... you will only see the pressure drop when the liquid is all gone.... our huge tanks at work are heated and chilled to control the pressure in the summer and winter.

Also don't leave in hot location otherwise the pressure relief system will blow.

[czubak]

I put my CO2 on a cheap scale so I have a better idea how low it's getting.

Cleaning a keezer is a PITA, but I like it more than converted fridges I've used in the past. A broom handle with a towel on the end makes for somewhat effective cleaning. Also a shop vac for the big messes. Oh I have a small dehumidifier in mine. Not terribly effective in my 15cf, I guess I could get a couple more but I'm trying to keep it simple


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[Matt F]

Keezers are awesome. A fridge is a nice option too. I really like mine. No dampness to clean up, no temp controller needed, tap handles at proper serving height, less lifting, better bottle storage. I tend to use whatever I can get for free. I used cobra taps for a while before scoring my taps. Fridge was free.

[UndeadFred]

CO2 is an interesting gas for many reasons. In a tank it is more interesting mix of liquid and gas. The fact that water absorbs it and the free ions actually become carbonic acid.. it does contribute to the flavor of any beverage including beer. That interaction is half the interesting point...

The reason that you might suspect that the high pressure gauge gives you a better indicator outside of the fridge is that you lose about 1/2 of the high pressure between 68F and 34F on the gas side... since the gauge more or less will indicate the gas pressure.. it's set more or less for room temperature.... So like I said, at half the pressure it will show in the red with a full tank if used inside the keezer.

But here is why the gauges are mostly useless in my opinion. The CO2 at fridge to room temperatures is at 600-1000 PSI with say, 800 PSI nominal. headspace is gas, but the bottom of the tank is a liquid at that pressure. This is why you have to keep CO2 tanks upright. If you were to get the liquid into the regulator, it is incompressible like all other liquids.. and you ruin the regulator. Tanks made for horizontal use have an external chamber before the regulator to have the liquid boil off.

But here is the catch with those high pressure gauges. There is a non-linear (VERY NON-LINEAR) phase transition with the liquid boiling to gas.. so it's a cliff.. you are at 600-1000 PSI until you run out of liquid and then the pressure in the tank will go to zero as you then use up the rest of the gas. So if that gauge drops...... it drops fast.... too fast to be useful...

So to avoid that, weighing the tank is much better. When my tank finally bites it (I'm guessing it is 1/2 the way there) I am going to get a tare weight and like I said, probably hang it off a luggage spring scale.. THAT will indicate my actual CO2 level.

Fred

[Matt F]

Agree with useless gauge. Makes an extra 5# tank or paintball tank for a spare nice. I keep saying I will get one, but after many years still haven't. Someday.

[czubak]

I've had an empty 5# for a year or more. Keep forgetting to fill it. Be nice for other things not keezer related


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