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Bru'n Water
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:41 am
by carrisr
John,
I assume you converted the sulfate number? Ward reports it as SO4-S. If not, then your sulfate is crazy high. If you did convert I wouldn't worry too much about that chloride/sulfate ratio for hoppy beers, as I've seen recipes from respected brewers that push sulfate a lot higher for IPA's. I personally haven't come to any personal conclusions on it, but do generally keep sulfate less than 100ppm. You also want to make sure you're not adding anything with magnesium such as gypsum as your magnesium levels are already at the upper recommended limits. Mine is on the 50's, which is one of the reasons I have to cut my well water with RO if I use it.
But on the other hand, your lagers generally turn out pretty dam good, so if you've never adjusted your water before you are doing something right! But, I like to have control over as much of the brewing process as I can with my low-tech system, and water is arguably the most important ingredient.
On 01/26/2013 12:23 PM, johnnyik wrote:
So, I have never really paid attention to my water until now. I've been studying it for the last month or two now. I sent in a sample to Ward Labs. The numbers I got back are staggering! In Center Point, I have liquid limestone! Numbers as follows:
Ca 57ppm
Mg 28ppm
Sulfate 78ppm
Chloride 9ppm
Bicarbonate HCO3 373
Alkalinity as CaCO3 306
pH 7.5
That alkalinity is ridiculous! Only good for stout and dark lager. If I want to make a Pils I have to use 9gal distilled and one gal tap plus add a bunch of calcium to decrease the mash pH enough. Plus my sulfate to chloride ratio is so far out of whack, any hoppy beers will taste nasty bitter (which they have).
I listened to all four water podcasts from BrewStrong, read the mash pH section of How to Brew and use the water chemistry calculator on brewersfriend.com and John Palmers mash spreadsheet to calculate all of my mash and boil additions of gypsum and calcium chloride. Now that I have this new knowledge, I'm itching to brew some quality pale ale's, IPA's and clean light lagers for this summer! It pays to know your water. Send it in to Ward Labs if you need. It was easy, pretty cheap, and really useful. PM me if you need any advice.
John Eikenberry
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:51 pm
by johnnyik
Randy, I did not convert it at first, not knowing I needed to. As I read some posts online I discovered it. Ward reported my sulfate as 26 SO4-S. So take it times 3 and I got 78. I didn't think that much sulfate was a big issue either but Palmer says a 2/1 sulfate to chloride ratio is the best for hoppy beers. Anything over that and you will get much more harsh bitterness and lose the flavor and aroma hops easier. Also, gypsum is calcium sulfate, epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. I do not add any extra magnesium, no need to cause the shits!
Thanks for the comp on my lagers! The darker the lager, the better it has turned out for me. With this new found water knowledge, I can't wait to brew some helles or pils for this summer. I brewed a simple helles in november but just used a 50-50 tap and distilled with no extra calcium. The finished product is clean but still has a sweet and slightly slick mouthfeel, much like my previous light beers. I can now attribute this to the final beer most likely being too basic. I think this is the flavor that Gordon Strong found in my vienna lager 2 years ago at NHC but he couldn't figure it out either. Anyway, nuf ramblin. bring on brewing in 2013!
Bru'n Water
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:14 am
by DrPaulsen
John - which test did you order from Ward Labs? I see three options on their "Brewer's Water Testing Kit" page that all look very similar to me.
https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.aspx
Thanks,
Lee
On Monday, January 28, 2013, johnnyik wrote:
Randy, I did not convert it at first, not knowing I needed to. As I read some posts online I discovered it. Ward reported my sulfate as 26 SO4-S. So take it times 3 and I got 78. I didn't think that much sulfate was a big issue either but Palmer says a 2/1 sulfate to chloride ratio is the best for hoppy beers. Anything over that and you will get much more harsh bitterness and lose the flavor and aroma hops easier. Also, gypsum is calcium sulfate, epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. I do not add any extra magnesium, no need to cause the shits!
Thanks for the comp on my lagers! The darker the lager, the better it has turned out for me. With this new found water knowledge, I can't wait to brew some helles or pils for this summer. I brewed a simple helles in november but just used a 50-50 tap and distilled with no extra calcium. The finished product is clean but still has a sweet and slightly slick mouthfeel, much like my previous light beers. I can now attribute this to the final beer most likely being too basic. I think this is the flavor that Gordon Strong found in my vienna lager 2 years ago at NHC but he couldn't figure it out either. Anyway, nuf ramblin. bring on brewing in 2013!
John Eikenberry
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Bru'n Water
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:48 am
by carrisr
They didn't offer the "brewer's kit when I did mine, but it costs more too. Not sure why you need total Phosphorus for a beer test, as none of spreadsheets use it.
I did the W-6 test. If you think you may have iron and want confirmation, then go with the W-6. Going through the "regular" method, you provide your own bottles and packaging. No big deal. If you do have iron you'll most likely see staining in your sinks and toilets, plus you'll probably taste it. You don't want to brew with water that has iron unless you like that metallic taste.
http://www.wardlab.com/FeeSchedule/WaterAnalysis.aspx
On 02/05/2013 12:21 AM, DrPaulsen wrote:
John - which test did you order from Ward Labs? I see three options on their "Brewer's Water Testing Kit" page that all look very similar to me.
https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.aspx
Thanks,
Lee
On Monday, January 28, 2013, johnnyik wrote:
: Randy, I did not convert it at first, not knowing I needed to. As I read some posts online I discovered it. Ward reported my sulfate as 26 SO4-S. So take it times 3 and I got 78. I didn't think that much sulfate was a big issue either but Palmer says a 2/1 sulfate to chloride ratio is the best for hoppy beers. Anything over that and you will get much more harsh bitterness and lose the flavor and aroma hops easier. Also, gypsum is calcium sulfate, epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. I do not add any extra magnesium, no need to cause the shits!
Thanks for the comp on my lagers! The darker the lager, the better it has turned out for me. With this new found water knowledge, I can't wait to brew some helles or pils for this summer. I brewed a simple helles in november but just used a 50-50 tap and distilled with no extra calcium. The finished product is clean but still has a sweet and slightly slick mouthfeel, much like my previous light beers. I can now attribute this to the final beer most likely being too basic. I think this is the flavor that Gordon Strong found in my vienna lager 2 years ago at NHC but he couldn't figure it out either. Anyway, nuf ramblin. bring on brewing in 2013!
John Eikenberry
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Bru'n Water
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:57 am
by DrPaulsen
Thanks Randy. I ordered the W6 test. I grew up with iron rich water and am fairly certain my current well doesn't have elevated levels of iron.
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 8:50 AM, carrisr <
brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (
brew-tech@crbeernuts.org)> wrote:
They didn't offer the "brewer's kit when I did mine, but it costs more too. Not sure why you need total Phosphorus for a beer test, as none of spreadsheets use it.
I did the W-6 test. If you think you may have iron and want confirmation, then go with the W-6. Going through the "regular" method, you provide your own bottles and packaging. No big deal. If you do have iron you'll most likely see staining in your sinks and toilets, plus you'll probably taste it. You don't want to brew with water that has iron unless you like that metallic taste.
http://www.wardlab.com/FeeSchedule/WaterAnalysis.aspx
On 02/05/2013 12:21 AM, DrPaulsen wrote:
: John - which test did you order from Ward Labs? I see three options on their "Brewer's Water Testing Kit" page that all look very similar to me.
https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.aspx
Thanks,
Lee
On Monday, January 28, 2013, johnnyik wrote:
: Randy, I did not convert it at first, not knowing I needed to. As I read some posts online I discovered it. Ward reported my sulfate as 26 SO4-S. So take it times 3 and I got 78. I didn't think that much sulfate was a big issue either but Palmer says a 2/1 sulfate to chloride ratio is the best for hoppy beers. Anything over that and you will get much more harsh bitterness and lose the flavor and aroma hops easier. Also, gypsum is calcium sulfate, epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. I do not add any extra magnesium, no need to cause the shits!
Thanks for the comp on my lagers! The darker the lager, the better it has turned out for me. With this new found water knowledge, I can't wait to brew some helles or pils for this summer. I brewed a simple helles in november but just used a 50-50 tap and distilled with no extra calcium. The finished product is clean but still has a sweet and slightly slick mouthfeel, much like my previous light beers. I can now attribute this to the final beer most likely being too basic. I think this is the flavor that Gordon Strong found in my vienna lager 2 years ago at NHC but he couldn't figure it out either. Anyway, nuf ramblin. bring on brewing in 2013!
John Eikenberry
Randy Carris
Cedar Log Brewhouse
CR Beer Nuts Event Coordinator
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:49 am
by DrPaulsen
I got my well water test results back today. I think I'll be sticking with RO water, since my well water is apparently worthless for brewing.
The Ward Labs "brewer's kit" was very handy. They shipped me a sample container in a cardboard tube, along with return postage and a shipping label. It was probably $8 worth of stuff ($6.50 in shipping) with the bonus that I didn't have to find any of the containers or go to the post office. Seemed worth the $10 fee to me.
(All values are in ppm)
Calcium : 138
Sulfate : 21
Chloride : 42
Sodium : 15
Magnesium : 51
Carbonate, CO3 : < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 : 509
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 417
Total Hardness, CaCO3 : 558
pH: 7.3
Residual Alkalinity : 289
(from separate worksheet)
Bru'n Water
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:38 am
by carrisr
Wow, and I thought I had hard water. Did you convert the sulfate number? If not, it's actually 63 ppm, as Ward reports as SO4-S. Magnesium is about the same as mine and is one of the biggest reasons I use RO. You definitely don't want that much Mg.
Just as an example of how high the alkalinity in your water is, if you are sparging with 4 gallons of water, you'd want to add around 8ml of lactic acid (88%) or 6ml phosphoric acid (85%) to make sure your sparge water was under pH 6. That's a lot of acid.
On 02/13/2013 08:49 AM, DrPaulsen wrote:
I got my well water test results back today. I think I'll be sticking with RO water, since my well water is apparently worthless for brewing.
The Ward Labs "brewer's kit" was very handy. They shipped me a sample container in a cardboard tube, along with return postage and a shipping label. It was probably $8 worth of stuff ($6.50 in shipping) with the bonus that I didn't have to find any of the containers or go to the post office. Seemed worth the $10 fee to me.
(All values are in ppm)
Calcium : 138
Sulfate : 21
Chloride : 42
Sodium : 15
Magnesium : 51
Carbonate, CO3 : < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 : 509
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 417
Total Hardness, CaCO3 : 558
pH: 7.3
Residual Alkalinity : 289
(from separate worksheet)
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:13 am
by -MG-
Wow!
That is quite the water report. I think you are right to stick to RO after seeing that.
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:54 am
by -MG-
The last report that CR published on their site said they used in 2011 Chlorine to kill bacteria. The report states the average residual chlorine is 3.2ppm.
Doing some reading this sounds like its opening a door for off flavors to come in during the mash and surface in the form of Pheonlics (Tannins).
I'm struggling still with an off flavor, and this is my next route. I plan to boil the water ahead of time and probably will also add Potassium metabisulfite after the boil in case of chloramines.
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:18 pm
by Matt F
You do have to address the chloramines. I had one of the CR water treatment plant chemists over to my house for a brew session last year. He said they don't use chlorine anymore, just chloramines. He was really in to the water and was surprised I was not building up my water from RO. I use to just fill jugs at the filling station at Hy-Vee when I started with great results but have been using CR tap water (J Ave) treated with one Campden tablet per 20 gallons of water for over 7 years now. Except for the campden tablet, I rarley treat my water other than a little gypsum for my IPAs and Pale Ales. I have been happy with my beer and so have many brew contests.