Hy Vee competition

brownbeard · Post by **brownbeard** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:17 pm

I wanted to do a thread in the member's only section for this.

I did send an email to Wayne, essentially telling him that I thought $20 and a case of beer was too much and he may have problems getting folks to enter. I would like to do the comp. And I am not opposed to giving a case of beer to a tasting. But $20 is too much to ask.

BrewHound · Post by **BrewHound** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:02 am

Tim, you may want to send a follow up email about the judging criteria for this event. No serious homebrewer will most likely enter because it really provides no benefit to them.

If I can not get serious feedback on my beer from someone who has a decent understanding of styles and a palette that has been refined for tasting beer, then it offers no value to me.

Plus to ask a brewer to give them a case, then charge us $20 to enter. Who is running this thing Millstream! I for one, have no intention of entering this so that they can charge me money for my beer, then serve it to others that they are charging money to drink it.

They may want to take a serious look at how they are setting this event up. I can understand their concerns about ensuring they have enough beer to serve, but in my opinion it would be better to ask for the beer earlier and not charge the brewer's to enter, as this is not a serious competition, then to try to use that as an enticement to ensure people are commited to the event.

Good luck though to any of the Nuts who enter, I am sure if one of the Nuts enter, one of the Nuts will win! AH NOTHING LIKE THE SMELL OF NUTS IN THE MORNING!

brownbeard · Post by **brownbeard** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:07 am

Here is the response I got from Wayne.

Hey Tim,

We are trying a public approach. Two beers would not allow for the public to sample, only the judges. The $20 is to ensure we get people serious about attending. We are hosting a publicized event and can’t afford to have 15 of the 20 entries forget or blow it off. Considering the prize (approx $500 cash, plus cases of homebrew, and we are getting more items donated from local beer vendors) we felt that we could experiment with it this way and see how it goes. If we don’t make our mark of 20 brewers, we will re-evaluate and adjust for the next event. It’s a big stake and a lot of beer, but we wanted a big event, one that over time the public will get used to the occurrence of it and it will grow. It’ll be a learning experience for all of us, I hope you can make it to the event as an attendee, should you choose not to brew.

Wayne

carrisr · Post by **carrisr** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:46 am

Tim,
Do you know if it's a "one winner takes all" kind of thing? They really need to consider doing something meaningful for everyone who enters IMHO. Otherwise it comes off a lot like a publicity stunt for HyVee and Zepplins at the home brewer's expense. They are charging people admission for this event after all, and it's more like a beer tasting with a "people's choice" award.

Not that our feedback seems to count for much, but they could really make this a big deal if it had more credibility behind it. For example, they could do a properly judged comp (organized by local HB clubs perhaps) and then host the BOS round at thier event. To keep things manageable they could limit the style categories for example. Then the people entering have gotten some feedback, and having been selected to he honored at the event has real value.

On Thursday 07 July 2011 9:07:38 am you wrote:

Here is the response I got from Wayne.

Hey Tim,

We are trying a public approach. Two beers would not allow for the
public to sample, only the judges. The $20 is to ensure we get people
serious about attending. We are hosting a publicized event and can’t
afford to have 15 of the 20 entries forget or blow it off. Considering
the prize (approx $500 cash, plus cases of homebrew, and we are getting
more items donated from local beer vendors) we felt that we could
experiment with it this way and see how it goes. If we don’t make our
mark of 20 brewers, we will re-evaluate and adjust for the next event.
It’s a big stake and a lot of beer, but we wanted a big event, one that
over time the public will get used to the occurrence of it and it will
grow. It’ll be a learning experience for all of us, I hope you can make
it to the event as an attendee, should you choose not to brew.

Wayne
------------------------
You can't get with this with a bad hip - Matt

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Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:25 am

Sorry to raise such a stink everyone. I figure if you want to enter go for it. If you don't like it, don't do it.

I was put off significantly by my wasted efforts to help out with some stong suggestions on what would help make the contest good. Maybe they will have great success and maybe not. They understand this is a first go and hopefully will listen to suggestions next year. The way it is set up, you have to guess what the judges are looking for, not necessarily make the best beer. Not knowing who the judges are makes it difficult. For example, if you go for a big IPA and Mr. German beer from Millstream is the judge, you're out. Tom is right, I would go big beer, but those usually need some time to age.

The only positive I see is it promotes craft beer. Problem is for some people this will be their first exposure to a homebrew and if they suck, that will be their impression of homebrew. A potential future homebrewer will be killed. Also, If I were the winner of a 20 beer contest, I don't think I would want to take home all the losers as a prize. May just donate them to the crowd. Cash is king though.

Now the Festival of Iowa Beers. I have my beef with it since we have had a cap put on how much we can bring and only four free tickets. The positive is we have club members that are members because they had our beer at that festival. The first year we did it, we more than doubled our membership. I was in this club before we even had 10 members and remember how important it was to really growing the club.

The thing I like most about the Millstream event is it brings a lot of Iowa homebrew clubs together so we can talk with each other and try our peers beers. It is the only event in our area like that. That is the main reason I continue to participate. It is the only event in the area where I try a homebrew from someone I only see once a year and can ask them how they made it and get great information. I learned things there in conversations that have improved my brewing. That doesn't happen at any other event we do. On that note, I plan to bring a keg to that festival this year. There are also a lot of new small breweries in Iowa and that festival is the only chance I get to try their beers. They don't come to Benz and it gives me an opportunity to try their stuff without driving all over the place.

brownbeard · Post by **brownbeard** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:29 am

I got another email from Wayne on the event.

Tim,

I have heard all day how badly I am being bashed on the Beer Nuts site. I have worked very hard to secure a great venue, credible judges, create an exciting unique format, design tshirts, etc, but all I am hearing is that people don’t want change. Can I ask you to please post on the site that in order to accommodate, we will plan a plain, simple competition more like what they are used to specifically for the Beer Nuts in the future as well, so that maybe the some of the negativity will be alleviated, being as an option will be available later for those that don’t like this format? Aside from what I hear about the Beer Nuts site, the response has been phenomenal, so I am confused how the group I was attempting to cater too is the only opposition.

I did this specifically for the club, so the last thing I want to do is alienate you all. I have heard that comments are being made about the registration fee as being greedy on our part, it would be nice if it could be cleared up as in the rules that the fee ALL goes to prize money. The $20 includes food at zeppelin’s, a wine and spirit’s coupon, a tshirt, samples of the other brewers beers, the chance at the prize money, etc. By the time we are done with organization, signage and advertising, time invested, and all the other things we will have 1000’s of dollars invested in this. I don’t even know what else to say. I have too many people registering to back out of the competition, or else I would probably just cancel, chalk it up to a loss, and call it a day. I am hoping maybe the group can live and let live, and ignore this one as uninteresting, rather than offensive, as it has been labeled thus far. Thanks for your time and help.

Wayne and Spirits

brownbeard · Post by **brownbeard** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:34 am

I have to say, I am disappointed in our club. And just a bit embarrassed. We should not be publicly trashing a guy who is working really hard to promote craft beer in our community.

I plan on registering for the event. I have spent more money, and donated more beer for other events. I think Wayne genuinely cares about the craft beer scene here, and could be a good partner for us. I am going to do my part to help make the inaugural event a success. And hope for other opportunities in the future.

carrisr · Post by **carrisr** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:04 am

I too feel a little bad about it, and would like to do something as a club to help mend the wound. A good reminder that we need to keep these kinds of discussions to the non-public part of our site. I know it was moved, but probably too late in this case.

On that note: are we activley removing non-paying "members" from that area? Not being critical, I just want a point of reference for who's reading this discussion section.

In our club's defense I will offer one point: If you really want to cater an event, or anything for that matter, to a person or group, it's usually wise to consult said person/group before finalizing plans. If we have been included at all in the ideas/planning stage the reaction would have been entirely different.

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tony b · Post by **tony b** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:16 am

Sorry Tim, but I see it differently. If we were the supposed "target audience" for this event, "I did this specifically for the club," why didn't Wayne make direct contact with us to help plan it and get our input/suggestions/ideas? We'd have been more than eager to help with this, but to my knowledge, no one was contacted. So when we find fault with some of the details, or have questions about how it's actually going to work (like when do you actually turn in the beer?), he shouldn't have been surprised?

While some of the comments on this forum were a bit harsh, I admit, it's our forum and our members' opinions. This isn't the first time members have had harsh criticism for other events, beers, breweries, etc. We have a pretty lenient policy about policing the forum. None of the posted criticisms were directed at Wayne personally, they were all regarding the event. Similar (or worse) comments have been made (even in this same string) about the Iowa Festival of Beers. Not that one wrong makes another right, but let's be careful about castigating one another here. We've all posted some pretty pointed comments from time to time.

Bottomline, it's his event and he can run it anyway he wants and likewise, our members can make a decision whether to participate or not, based upon how it's run. I do hope that he does well with the event, as I think the basic idea behind it is a sound one. And, I truly look forward to his offer of actually working with us to plan a future event. I think that I speak for the entire club when I say that Wayne is welcome to come to any future Club meeting and discuss his ideas with us and have a positive discussion about promoting craft beer in this area.

BrewHound · Post by **BrewHound** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:19 am

brownbeard wrote:I have to say, I am disappointed in our club. And just a bit embarrassed. We should not be publicly trashing a guy who is working really hard to promote craft beer in our community.

I plan on registering for the event. I have spent more money, and donated more beer for other events. I think Wayne genuinely cares about the craft beer scene here, and could be a good partner for us. I am going to do my part to help make the inaugural event a success. And hope for other opportunities in the future.

Tim, I don't think that is a fair to bash your club or fellow beer nuts about this. Yes, Wayne is trying to further the craft beer market in this area and for that we are truely greatful to Wayne, which I belive has benefited him as well as his store, as many of us shop there for craft brews.

First if this competition was truely catered around the Beer Nuts as Wayne has suggested I would think he would have showed to a meeting or contacted one of our cabnit or members to ask us to get feedback on the proposed rules and scenario that the event was going to take as he would have gotten this information from us sooner and we could have helped him to put together an event that encouraged Beer Nuts participation.

Next, Information for the event here is severely lacking. All the data provided by Wanye just says that the registration fee will translate into prizes and that some of the beer will be that as well. The rules should clearly state the prizes that will be awarded to participates. That is true of any competition of any type. As this in not a qualified BJCP event, information about the source for the judges should be included whether it be local tavern owners, first to show up at the event, family, friends, ect... I still say that $20 bucks is to steep for entry iwhen you are contributing that much beer. As stated prior if he wanted to ensure participation do it far enough in advance and recieve the beers far enough in advance that you can cover problems with under participation.

Please take a look at some of the judging criteria and tell me you don't seriously expect us to not complain about some of it.
4. Name (what brewer chose to call his/her creation)
6. Wow effect.
8. Food pairing potential.

In closing Tim, I think that you should not putting down the club or its membership for openly stating what they feel about an "Event". We all do our parts to further craft beer by educating friends and family, showing up at events and speaking with people, donating beers and other things for events and the club.

Now with that said, I do think it was of poor taste to bash the event in an open forum. That should have been moved to the members only section much sooner then it was. However, to call us out for stating that we do not agree with the compitition format is in just as poor of taste. I do admire your dedication and entering even though you do not agree with the format, please give others the same and not bash them for not entering and for encouraging fair and balanced beer competitions.

Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:35 am

I do feel bad that this was so negative as I made the initial post and pointed it that direction. I don't think Tim is out of line letting us know that was uncool. I certainly think Wayne is doing a nice job getting good beer at his store and it is cool he wants to promote homebrewing. This was not intended to be an attack on Wayne.

We homebrewers are a passionate, weird bunch of people that are difficult to understand unless you are one of us. Wayne is trying so let's reach out and have some constructive feedback about what we like/don't like about the competition. It has some big pluses like you could win a lot of money. Sounds like there should be enough entrants in the competition to make it happen. Hope it is fun for those that participate. It will be easier to understand after it is done.

Going forward, we should start these types of conversations in the members only, but that doesn't mean it won't become public information. This is a small town and it doesn't take much for the word to get out. As Tony said, we certainly have the right to give our opinions. We as homebrewers should provide our opinions as ambassadors of the hobby. Because of our passion for homebrewing, emotion is a part of that.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:28 am

I’m personally happy that Wayne and others read these, if we can’t say something to the beer interested folks, then maybe we shouldn’t post anything at all, and not having to hide it. I think folks in the community reading these can hopefully find some benefit and vice versa if they care to contribute back to the forum for our benefit. Since were not sure who put this together, I don’t believe anyone was bashing Wayne directly by any means but confused about the event. I hope he takes things lightly, and we all become more aware for the next event with the feedback from both sides. I know we all appreciate what Wayne is attempting to do, and I’m very humbled that he was attempting to think of us during this event. The fact so many of us are posting concerns out there just shows how passionate we are and how much we want any beer event in our community to succeed!

As a side note, I think the members only area is really geared for internal club events, and any other sensitive area that would only benefit the real members of the club and not a place to hide how we feel about public places/events. But also remember what you post on the public forum not only voices how you feel, but as a member of the beer nuts your comments represent the club as a whole.

Now with that said, I have to agree on some points made by members and that if we were more involved we would have had a better understanding of this event. Perhaps the take away from this, its not that the event is poorly put together, but that we were poorly informed and it’s a matter of miscommunication.

So let’s summarize what I’m gathering from your post on this event that might be beneficial for Wayne’s and others event building as well as narrowing down what were really talking about in all these post.

$20 and a case of beer is much more than a typical judging – (it seems here the stakes are higher and require more buy in)
Just because you turn in money and a case, does not mean you are turning in beer worth public consumption, which I know personally from many comps I’ve judged at. (in my experience with comps and public tasting on these you pick the winners, and then serve up their beer at the event and can pair with food if you wish)
It appears the criteria to win will likely be geared more towards public taste and not on a technical merit ( you all know my mt dew beer is favorable and I get flak for it being a non traditional item)
Feeling of alienation from the event creators as several of us were under the impression we were helping to advise on the comp. (lack of communication)

Tim, feel free to share all or part of this with Wayne after a few folks have had time to review my perception of the list of concerns. I know you know Wayne the most and email tones can be misunderstood, and hope you can convey our respect and appreciation but also have Wayne realize and respect were just trying to help these types of events succeed so we can all feel more excited to be part of greater events in our community.

From: Matt F [mailto:brew-members@crbeernuts.org]
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 10:35 AM
To: brew-members@crbeernuts.org
Subject: Re: Hy Vee competition

I do feel bad that this was so negative as I made the initial post and pointed it that direction. I don't think Tim is out of line letting us know that was uncool. I certainly think Wayne is doing a nice job getting good beer at his store and it is cool he wants to promote homebrewing. This was not intended to be an attack on Wayne.

We homebrewers are a passionate, weird bunch of people that are difficult to understand unless you are one of us. Wayne is trying so let's reach out and have some constructive feedback about what we like/don't like about the competition. It has some big pluses like you could win a lot of money. Sounds like there should be enough entrants in the competition to make it happen. Hope it is fun for those that participate. It will be easier to understand after it is done.

Going forward, we should start these types of conversations in the members only, but that doesn't mean it won't become public information. This is a small town and it doesn't take much for the word to get out. As Tony said, we certainly have the right to give our opinions. We as homebrewers should provide our opinions as ambassadors of the hobby. Because of our passion for homebrewing, emotion is a part of that.

Matt Franklin
Slappy Brewing North

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DrPaulsen · Post by **DrPaulsen** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:31 am

I swung by and chatted with Wayne a bit today about the event. I think he agrees with the rest of us that there could have been a bit more back-and-forth beforehand to tailor the event to the group's expectations. That being said, he is very passionate about the idea, has put a lot of work into it so far, and really wants to see it succeed. He'd like to make it an annual event and, if this one is successful, the regional Hy-Vee Managers are interested in expanding the competition in either scope or number of sites in following years. He also mentioned to me that the regional Hy-Vee folks are becoming more interested in carrying homebrewing supplies.

When I initially read the rules and requirements document, I had the same cynical reaction most of you guys did (i.e. "Seriously, $20 and a case of beer just to let someone else give me their opinions?"). After talking to Wayne and getting a better sense of the scope of this year's event and his long term vision, I'm thinking much more seriously about entering. I think he's trying to capture the spirit of the Benz fest (i.e. a big public event) and meld it with a homebrew comp. He doesn't know as much about running traditional homebrew competitions as us, but he knows a lot more about interfacing with the general, non-beer-snob public than most of us do.

I don't know why Wayne didn't contact more/any of us beforehand, but I believe him when he says he's doing this to increase awareness of homebrewing to the general public and make a fun, interesting event. You have to admit that, for the most part, the general public would be bored out of their mind at a traditional beer juding competition.

Also, in fairness to the folks who posted negative comments, the lines of communication have been pretty poor. If the event is pitched purely as a traditional beer competition, the entry fees, judging system, prizes, etc, don't really make a lot of sense. Pitching it as some type of a hybrid beer comp/publicity event, with opportunity for improvement over time, makes the rules make more sense to me.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:37 am

Thanks Lee for stopping by and making some clarifications.

again, agreed, communications are off here.

From: DrPaulsen [mailto:brew-members@crbeernuts.org]
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 12:31 PM
To: brew-members@crbeernuts.org
Subject: Re: Hy Vee competition

I swung by and chatted with Wayne a bit today about the event. I think he agrees with the rest of us that there could have been a bit more back-and-forth beforehand to tailor the event to the group's expectations. That being said, he is very passionate about the idea, has put a lot of work into it so far, and really wants to see it succeed. He'd like to make it an annual event and, if this one is successful, the regional Hy-Vee Managers are interested in expanding the competition in either scope or number of sites in following years. He also mentioned to me that the regional Hy-Vee folks are becoming more interested in carrying homebrewing supplies.

When I initially read the rules and requirements document, I had the same cynical reaction most of you guys did (i.e. "Seriously, $20 and a case of beer just to let someone else give me their opinions?"). After talking to Wayne and getting a better sense of the scope of this year's event and his long term vision, I'm thinking much more seriously about entering. I think he's trying to capture the spirit of the Benz fest (i.e. a big public event) and meld it with a homebrew comp. He doesn't know as much about running traditional homebrew competitions as us, but he knows a lot more about interfacing with the general, non-beer-snob public than most of us do.

I don't know why Wayne didn't contact more/any of us beforehand, but I believe him when he says he's doing this to increase awareness of homebrewing to the general public and make a fun, interesting event. You have to admit that, for the most part, the general public would be bored out of their mind at a traditional beer juding competition.

Also, in fairness to the folks who posted negative comments, the lines of communication have been pretty poor. If the event is pitched purely as a traditional beer competition, the entry fees, judging system, prizes, etc, don't really make a lot of sense. Pitching it as some type of a hybrid beer comp/publicity event, with opportunity for improvement over time, makes the rules make more sense to me.

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Matt F · Post by **Matt F** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:02 am

I talked with Wayne on Friday. He cleared up some questions I had about the competition. First, you do not have to pay an additional $10 to attend the event. You pay only the $20 and you come to the event. Spots are filling up so get entered soon if you want in.

Also, the judges he had are folks that should know a good beer. Here is what he sent me about them.

I have a high profile beer brewer/rep that has spent time with the monks in Belgium and the brewmasters of Ayinger. I have a craft beer specialist who has brewed for commercial breweries, and finally a self taught beer geek who has tasted and rated n hundreds of craft beers using a system he created himself and is as passionate about beer as anyone i have ever met. None of them are restaurant owners, to the best of my knowlegde. These are all people donating their time to further interest in craft beer. None of them are fly-by-night.