Starters for dry yeast

kjball · Post by **kjball** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:44 pm

The good Dr Paulsen (who's opinion I hold in high regard) and I were discussing this topic at the last meeting. I've started playing around with making starters for my dry yeast. I knew that it was less necessary to do this than it is for the liquid tubes, simply because there's a ton more cells in the dry envelope. Rehydrating is a suggested step due to the osmotic pressure of the wort. My question is this: Is it just unnecessary to make a starter with dry yeast, or will it do harm? I've seen a fair amount of contradicting info about this on the forums. Those of you that know me, know I love the dry strains. They're cheap, durable, and pretty forgiving. I just want to make sure I'm treating them right. Thanks in advance.

bf514921 · Post by **bf514921** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:06 pm

what are the pro brewer instructions for dry yeast? Those would probably explain all I am guessing.

DrPaulsen · Post by **DrPaulsen** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:52 pm

After digging into this a bit more, I can only find a handful of texts that dissuade you from making starters with dried yeast & none of them back up the claim with data. (It's remarkably hard to find any good data on using dried yeast.)

On the other hand, if we dig into the dried yeast vendors, we find the following.

Mangrove Jack & Fermentis don't say much on the issue (which probably means it isn't a big deal).
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0195/8 ... t.pdf?1935
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/upl ... let_En.pdf

Danstar has a series of FAQ posts specifically devoted to yeast starters, which also probably means it isn't a big deal.
http://www.danstaryeast.com/topics/starter

Given this info, I'd say it's best to ignore whatever I said at the last meeting and proceed with making starters for dried yeast.

Steven P · Post by **Steven P** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:39 pm

I was just looking at the same stuff. Mangrove Jack states:

"Although Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series Yeasts do not require pre-hydration, cleaner and more professional results
may be produced if rehydrated before use."

and

"As a result of the drying process, Mangrove Jack’s dried yeasts are not suitable for harvesting and/or repitching. For best results, always
use a fresh sachet of yeast with every brew"

This is noob advice.

BrewHound · Post by **BrewHound** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:12 pm

My thoughts would be with the lower cost of dry yeast you are better off buying the packages to reach the required cell count (probably a little more to account for cell death due to shock) and rehydrating them, then making a starter. You will certainly spend less time and less money.

The reason I do starters primarly is to grow my cell count because I am too cheap to use the 6 or so vials/smack packs recommended, so I build up cell counts with starters. Getting the yeast active is a secondary reason and would probably not do if I had the required cell count to begin with.

kjball · Post by **kjball** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:29 pm

So, what I'm gathering is what I pretty much already knew. Not necessary to do a starter, but really not harmful, as long as the yeast is rehydrated prior to doing the starter.

Bones · Post by **Bones** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:22 am

The few times I have down starters with dry yeast it seems to ferment like made for only a few days then it falls on it's face. I have a Red Ale now that has been dead for a week and I transferred it to a secondary. Still read 1.021 and I am considering buying another dry pack and tossing it in there to finish it off.

Could be just coincidence. I prefer liquid yeast, but sometimes dry is all I can get my hands on

whitedj · Post by **whitedj** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:55 pm

Could be a couple different things... my mind is going to the yeast could be getting 'lazy' due to lack of oxygen when pitched or if the temperature is too low.

What was the OG, yeast, mash profile [thickness, temp], and have you verified your thermometer is correct?

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Bones <brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (brew-tech@crbeernuts.org)> wrote:

The few times I have down starters with dry yeast it seems to ferment like made for only a few days then it falls on it's face. I have a Red Ale now that has been dead for a week and I transferred it to a secondary. Still read 1.021 and I am considering buying another dry pack and tossing it in there to finish it off.

Could be just coincidence. I prefer liquid yeast, but sometimes dry is all I can get my hands on

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Bones · Post by **Bones** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:08 pm

It's in my basement at 65 degrees. Oxygen wasn't an issue when pitched, it eas fermenting like crazy then flopped.

OG was 1.062 (first all grain to hit the OG spot on), SafeAle S-04 yeast

Brewed this kit
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/bric ... rains.html

whitedj wrote:Could be a couple different things... my mind is going to the yeast could be getting 'lazy' due to lack of oxygen when pitched or if the temperature is too low.

What was the OG, yeast, mash profile [thickness, temp], and have you verified your thermometer is correct?

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Bones <brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (brew-tech@crbeernuts.org)> wrote:
The few times I have down starters with dry yeast it seems to ferment like made for only a few days then it falls on it's face. I have a Red Ale now that has been dead for a week and I transferred it to a secondary. Still read 1.021 and I am considering buying another dry pack and tossing it in there to finish it off.

Could be just coincidence. I prefer liquid yeast, but sometimes dry is all I can get my hands on

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carrisr · Post by **carrisr** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:16 pm

I've used that yeast a lot, and it is a little fickle and tends to underattenuate in my experience, especially with bigger beers. My personal theory (no data to back it up) is that it doesn't eat some of the less simple sugars as well as other yeasts. These will be more common in beers with a lot of non-base malts and in higher mash temps. On the plus side, it drops very well so makes for fast clearing beers, and when femented lower than 66-67 is't pretty clean.

On 11/14/2013 03:08 PM, Bones wrote:

It's in my basement at 65 degrees. Oxygen wasn't an issue when pitched, it eas fermenting like crazy then flopped.

OG was 1.062 (first all grain to hit the OG spot on), SafeAle S-04 yeast

Brewed this kit
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brickwarmer-holiday-red-extract-kit-w-specialty-grains.html

whitedj wrote: Could be a couple different things... my mind is going to the yeast could be getting 'lazy' due to lack of oxygen when pitched or if the temperature is too low.

What was the OG, yeast, mash profile [thickness, temp], and have you verified your thermometer is correct?

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Bones brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (brew-tech@crbeernuts.org))> wrote:
Quote: The few times I have down starters with dry yeast it seems to ferment like made for only a few days then it falls on it's face. I have a Red Ale now that has been dead for a week and I transferred it to a secondary. Still read 1.021 and I am considering buying another dry pack and tossing it in there to finish it off.

Could be just coincidence. I prefer liquid yeast, but sometimes dry is all I can get my hands on

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Bones · Post by **Bones** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:22 pm

I'll likely keg it this weekend and try it next week sometime. I am not that patient which is why my one shot at lagering was my last shot for a while

whitedj · Post by **whitedj** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:02 pm

Also, to confirm fermentation is 'done' you need to take hydrometer readings a couple days apart. Lack of airlock activity does not necessarily imply that fermentation is done, especially if your using a bucket.

If its too sweet for you, could always pitch nottingham to dry it up a couple extra points.

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Bones <brew-tech@crbeernuts.org (brew-tech@crbeernuts.org)> wrote:

I'll likely keg it this weekend and try it next week sometime. I am not that patient which is why my one shot at lagering was my last shot for a while

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Bones · Post by **Bones** » Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:08 pm

Thanks, I take hydrometer readings when I transfer. It's been inactive for well over a week, since I transferred and got the 1.021 reading, that is why I assume.

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